Schalk Brits exclusive: Rassie Erasmus will keep pushing the boundaries, Leaving Super Rugby has helped South African rugby & If you’re good enough, you’re never too old for the Springboks

Speaking to CoinPoker.com, former Springbok hooker Schalk Brits explained how Rassie Erasmus continues to find ways to push South Africa forwards after their win over Ireland last weekend.

Having won a World Cup as part of the Boks squad in 2019, Brits detailed the development of the squad’s depth as they navigate a full World Cup cycle, seeking to become the first team to win three World Cups in a row in 2027.

Q. How impressed have you been with the Boks and how they’re evolving?

“I don’t see it as just one, two, or three games. It’s already there if you go back to 2018. You have to understand the process. The process is the secret.

“In 2018, Rassie took over after record losses against Ireland and New Zealand, when we were seventh in the world. Even then, you focus on what gives the biggest return on time spent: defence, set-piece, and the kicking game.

“The idea was to evolve, starting in 2019. Even then, we said the probability of winning the World Cup in 2019 was very small because we lacked experience. We needed a bit of luck, and we got lucky by playing the percentages.

“The plan from 2019 to 2023 was to further evolve our game. Unfortunately, COVID came and stopped that evolution. Then the Lions tour came, leaving us with only a short period before 2023 to evolve again.

“Through a lot of grit and hard work – and a bit of luck – things went our way. We lost against Ireland, and in the knockouts, we won by one point, one point, and one point, right? Take France, England, New Zealand.

“This is probably the first four-year rotation where he can actually install a full plan. From 2019 to 2023, he gave a lot of guys exposure. You don’t want “key individual risk” in your team. If Handré Pollard gets injured, you’re in big trouble. It happened with Malcolm Marx twice.

“So, what has he done since 2023? He’s given more exposure to other players. He brought in Tony Brown as a new defence coach, saying, “Let’s evolve the game to where we are.”

“We have the belief now. We will still lose games, for example, the game we lost against Australia recently. We overplayed that game. He said we don’t have the capacity yet to play an all-expansive game; we need to pull back a little bit. But those are the mistakes we will make in order to grow.

“The evolution of the team is so impressive. It’s not just a key man like Pollard doing the same thing. You’ve got Pollard, who you know will win the game by playing in the right areas. But now he brings in Sacha Feinberg-Mngomezulu and Manie Libbok.”

“He brings Andre Esterhuizen in, who can cover flanker if a red or yellow card comes. Kwagga Smith was the previous impact player; now Andre is an impact player, and he can still use Kwagga as well. Damian Willemse is playing 15, 12, and 10. Our scrum-halves can play wing.

“He’s trying to build athletes, even though you will always need a lock. He picks flankers and locks who can play multiple positions, giving you flexibility of choice. It takes bravery and guts to get to that position.

“Rassie isn’t just full of controversy; how he’s evolved the squad is spectacular. It feels like we are pushing the boundaries, and everyone else is trying to keep up with what Rassie is doing.

“In the past, we would follow Australia and New Zealand’s playing style. Now, it feels like for once, we are bringing expertise outside of South Africa into the game, and the rest are following us.

“It’s amazing what is happening. Teams are evolving, some a little slower than others. The game is in a good spot, except for how it is being managed.

“If I were still playing, I would be extremely frustrated by the way the game is managed by the guy with the whistle and the guys who make the decisions. I want to see a spectacle with 15 players on the pitch. I think they’re pushing a certain narrative, but is it harming the game? Is pushing safety so hard actually detrimental to the quality of the spectacle?”

Q. South Africa is still the world’s number one, showcasing incredible strength and depth. Rassie has introduced so many players that they could field two near-world-class teams. Have you ever seen such all-round quality and depth in your long history with the Boks?

“There’s nothing like it.

“I think there are a couple of things we have to be thankful for. When we moved away from Super Rugby… although New Zealand and Australia were quite dominant in that competition, and we had stages of dominance, moving away played a vital part in our growth. Although Super Rugby is very exciting, it doesn’t always prepare you best for Test match rugby.

“Then, consider that we are now playing in the North and getting used to those conditions. We’re playing more in the Investec Champions Cup and the URC. That has prepped us to play a better, more set-piece-orientated game, which is crucial for Test matches and the fine margins involved.

“From my personal experience, I could not believe the impact of a knock-on or an error in your own half up there. Especially if it’s wet and cold and you can’t kick the ball as far, it takes you ages to get out of your own half.

“So, I think the adaptation of moving North to South – rather than West to East – the exposure we get during the Champions Cup has actually played perfectly into our hands.”

Q. Midway through the cycle, can South Africa realistically be stopped from securing their fifth, and third consecutive, World Championship title? They are only expected to improve.

“We are mid-cycle, but – not being arrogant – the reality is that in 2018, nobody thought we were going to win the World Cup either.

“Rassie and that coaching group – and the players themselves – will keep pushing the boundaries. The one thing Rassie hates is complacency and entitlement. He will keep fighting against those things that creep in when you are successful.

“He will remind the players quite frankly that it’s not just about winning a rugby match or a World Cup; it’s about giving hope to our country. When your “why” is rightly defined, it makes everything a lot better because you understand the sacrifice required for the country.

“The last one was all about creating our first team to win back-to-back titles. Now, aiming for a third time… that is something that would always be remembered. Nobody has done three in a row.

“With all due respect, if you look at the game in South Africa: 1995 was predominantly white. Then you had 2007, with John Smit as captain – a great win in France. Then take Siya Kolisi, the first Black captain in 2019: the diversity of the viewer base has grown exponentially.

“Now, every South African is supporting the Springboks. It’s a team they can be proud of. That support has played a vital role in the success of the Springboks because the players know exactly how important this is for our country.”

Q. Do you think Siya will still be captain in 2027, or if not, who might be? Is someone being groomed, do you think – is it Eben?

“I don’t know. Siya and Eben are pretty much the same age. Looking at Siya’s performance, to be fair, he could still play the World Cup after that!

“But the reality is Rassie will look at the data – exactly how many meters you run, how many tackles you make. It is very stats-driven, and he will tell you if your performance level isn’t there.

He is not scared of age at all. I mean, I was 38 and a half when he picked me to play in 2019.

“His viewpoint is simply: if you’re good enough, you’re old enough. It applies to the upper end of the scale too. It makes no difference to him if you are 19 or 38; if you are good enough, he picks you.”

Q. The World Cup draw is on December 3rd, and the tournament in Australia is expanding from 20 to 24 teams. To me, that seems like too many, but what are your thoughts?

“Smaller is sometimes better. But I do understand the viewpoint is to grow rugby. The unfortunate reality is that it is not a game played by the masses. It hasn’t grown as much as it should.

“It is a fantastic game with the values it teaches kids – my kids, your kids, everyone’s kids. It is crossing across male and female, and it should be played by more countries.

“So, I understand that while the product might be better with a smaller format, by increasing the teams, you bring in a lot of countries that wouldn’t have been involved otherwise.

“Hopefully, with that, it gives the next guy or girl in Uruguay the thought that maybe they can play in a World Cup.

“Who knows what it might be? Maybe it is short-sighted of us to often just think about the “product” all the time.”

Q. Do you think Siya will still be captain in 2027, or if not, who might be? Is someone being groomed, do you think – is it Eben?

“I don’t know. I mean, Siya and Eben are pretty much the same age. If I look at Siya’s performance, to be fair, he could still play the World Cup after that.

“But the reality is, Rassie will look at the data – exactly how many meters you ran, how many tackles you made. It is very stats-driven, and he will tell you if your performance is done.

“He is not scared of age at all. I mean, he picked me when I was 38 and a half in 2019.

“His viewpoint is always: if you’re good enough, you’re young enough. And it’s the same on the upper side of the scale: if you’re good enough, you’re old enough. It doesn’t make a difference if you’re 19 or 38; if you’re good enough, he picks you.”

Q. He’s not afraid to substitute people early… Siya has been one of those players.

“I think there is sometimes a bigger plan and a bigger picture that we as supporters don’t always see.

“There is stats analysis regarding scoring just before halftime, just after halftime, and the crucial minutes within a game where there’s a “lull period.” They’ll do the analysis and determine the best time to make substitutions.

“But if a player is “off” on a particular day, he will literally take you off the pitch after 20 minutes. As a player, you know that as well.

“If your performance on the day is not good enough – he won’t keep you on the pitch just because of the effect it might have on the player.

“When I talk about entitlement or ego, you put that quickly in your pocket. He’ll look at your numbers, and if you’re not good enough, he’ll tell you by taking you off.

“It shows the bravery of the guy, because then his plan needs to change late in the game. He knows if he pulls a player early – if he “goes hard on the horse or the bishop” early-on there are certain things that leave him exposed at the back end of the game.

“But he is very clear on his way. He is brave, and he is not scared to test, evolve, and make mistakes, because through mistakes you learn. You have to be aggressive in this game.

He plays a game of chess while others play checkers.”

Q. Is playing South Africa outside the international window a mistake for Wales? With 12 top players missing, it could get messy.

“For me, the Welsh nation itself is a very proud rugby nation. I know many Welsh players, and I think they have been going through a very tough patch for a long time.

“I do not understand playing outside of the window. I guess there are financial implications that play a part in making it make sense.

“But for me, international rugby should mostly be your top 30 against the other top 30 in the world. If you don’t have a lot of those players to pick from, the product isn’t good enough. And it is no good if the product isn’t good enough.

“It just doesn’t make sense. I guess there are purely financial implications involved in this decision.”

Q. Considering the low ticket sales (only 30,000), which players should Rassie start, blood, or give more exposure to, especially those currently used as replacements or ‘finishers’?

“I think he will rotate as he sees fit.

“What is interesting about Rassie is how he creates confidence in the squad. Before the game – or even during the season – he will say, “You will probably play this game, you’ll play this game, and you’ll play this game.”

“The outside world will not know, but the team knows. So, when he sticks to his word, he grows trust within the group.

“Because the team has been together for so long, what is scary is that when he brings in a new player, it doesn’t feel like the performance suffers that much.

“Back in the day, if you left out Butch James, Jean de Villiers, Schalk Burger, or Fourie du Preez, the performance of the team just plummeted. Now, it feels like there is maybe a small dip, but that is how he has blooded the team.

“He rotates more than anyone. He exposes more players to the Springbok shirt. In the beginning, people said, “He’s just giving caps away.” And I was like, “No, he’s growing depth. He’s growing experience.”

“If Sacha or Handre is there, Manie can step in. If Manie goes off, then someone else can step in. That is the position I’m seeing now. If you look at how many players are still injured, or not playing, or unavailable for selection – that depth is scary.”

Q. Losing captain Jac Morgan, arguably their only world-class player and someone who stands up to the best, is a massive blow for Wales.

“I’ve got a different view on this. I think there are amazing rugby players in Wales.

“I think the structure doesn’t help them. With all due respect – and I’m not so in-depth with Welsh rugby – there is great talent. There are unbelievable players there.

“Traditionally, even if they haven’t always performed for their provinces to the level their supporters might expect, when they put that red shirt on, they perform better than the sum of their parts. The combination of the team is better than the individuals.

“So, I just wonder if the system itself isn’t failing to support the players in developing further.

As a team, it looks like they have lost confidence and lost will. Even against New Zealand… I was very impressed with how they fought back.

“But once again, there is that persistent fear of just wondering when the floodgates are going to open. And that is actually the sad thing.”

Q. Are you worried the floodgates will open on Saturday?

“If I’m being conservative, I think it will be a tight match until 50 or 60 minutes.

“Nowadays, you can fight until 50 or 60. But if the opposition scores two quick tries, it feels like you’re chasing the rabbit around. Then you are trying to play from deeper, you try to chase the game, and you make another error. Before you know it, you’re 20 or 30 points down.

“Your strategy changes as soon as you are two tries – or 14 points – behind. You can’t play conservatively then. You stop thinking about keeping the game tight; you want to go and win it.

“We call it “compounded pressure.” With any team, when you are more than one score behind against Tier One nations, you have to try harder and take more risks, which often leads to further punishment.”

Q. Do you think Farrell being with the Lions, and so many Irish Lions having played only one or two provincial games before, affected their performance? Do you think they could have been better against South Africa, or is that a symptom of the Lions, or simply South Africa’s superiority?

“I would say maybe that could have played a part. A long June series? 100%.

“It is amazing that we finally got the monkey off our back with regards to Ireland – winning there [in Dublin] for the first time in 13 years.

“But the one thing is: Andy is a great coach. As I said previously, he was one of my coaches at Saracens and is a good friend.

“I would say he has a phenomenal way about him – how he motivates his side, how he approaches the game, and how he builds a culture and team environment.

“I think they will come back better and stronger. They always say that “the fish rots from the head,” but he is the opposite, right? He makes those players believe they can do something magical. He instills the work ethic and the discipline, and he is the guy on the front line doing that. He can’t physically be on the pitch, but he shows it in different ways.

“So, do I think it might have played a role? Yes. What percentage has it played? I don’t know.

But next season, they will come back and analyze, because they are just clever – the whole group around Andy.

“One thing I have to compliment is that while we [South Africa] are sitting on a massive base of rugby players, how Ireland is actually developing talent is phenomenal for the player pool they have. You have to give them credit. They maximize their talent pool.

“I think back to Australia when Joe Roff, George Gregan, and Stephen Larkham played. They had a way smaller base of rugby players, but they maximized their talent. They looked at data analytics, performance, and physical conditioning. They were ahead of everyone else.

“I think Ireland is sort of similar now with their base.”

Q. England beat New Zealand, suggesting improvement. Given the historic South Africa vs. New Zealand rivalry, where does England rank, and what are their prospects for the next couple of years?

“It’s 11 in a row now – that’s pretty amazing. I’m happy for Steve Borthwick and the team. You have Maro Itoje and a lot of experienced players leading from the front there.

“The big thing, however, is that you judge a team not when they win at home, but when they travel. I will wait to see how far in front – or behind – they are when they start touring.

“Twickenham is an intimidating place to play. There were a couple of calls that could have gone either way against New Zealand, but fair play to England. It is a fantastic win that will boost their confidence.

“It is similar to the 2023 World Cup scenario where you have six sides that can all possibly win. I still believe that England, New Zealand, France, and Ireland are the four teams running in front.

“Then you have Australia in the background; they can provide upsets. Scotland is pretty impressive, although I thought they might beat New Zealand for the first time ever this year, but it didn’t happen. There were opportunities where I thought they could have been braver to take the game.

“And don’t throw Argentina away. As we’ve seen, they are pretty impressive with their base of players as well.”

Q. Do you think England are South Africa’s main rivals at the moment, or is that us getting ahead of ourselves again?

“For me personally, New Zealand will always be our greatest rival. With Ireland, we have finally got the monkey off our back now.

“There is a lot of chat around England in South Africa because they are on a run now. They are the next guys that we have to play.

“So, I think England is on a great run. Enjoy it. Enjoy the support. It is great to hear the singing at Twickenham again, and to see Steve Borthwick getting a bit of breathing space. They have got great talent as well.”

Q. Regarding Saracens, specifically Owen Farrell and Maro Itoje, do you think Owen’s time as a top player is over?

“I will never, ever write Owen Farrell off. He is one of those guys who takes ownership when things get hard on a rugby pitch.

“In the same breath, George Ford has been amazing in how he has bossed the game. The way he took charge in New Zealand – specifically those drop goals – was really special.

“He has always been a mature, quality player, but his current form creates a great problem to have. If Owen Farrell can’t get in because of George Ford, he will keep pushing. That competition actually elevates the team.

“Owen is a mature individual and player. If you have a combination of two world-class players, it is better for your side.

“You don’t want to play the same player week in and week out; you want to give other guys opportunities. If George Ford goes on a great run but gets injured just before a World Cup, you need to know how many other tens you have in your pocket that can step in.

“Fin Smith is a great player as well – England have got some great talent coming through the Premiership.”

Q. And, a word about Maro. He’s growing into a pretty special – well, he’s already been a special player, but a leader of men now, isn’t he? He’s a totemic figure.

“Once again, it’s almost the same as what I said about Maro Itoje: I’m proud of the man.

“Some people are just born leaders. What is great about Maro is that he can follow as well. Naturally, he leads without trying to force it. He doesn’t need to have the last word.

“He incorporates other people to make his decisions easier. He takes the input of everyone to ensure he makes the right decision.

“How do you get experience as a captain or a player? You need time on the pitch with your people around you, going through tough situations.

“Through resistance and hardship, you build character. And you want your captain to be a person of character. I think Maro has done a brilliant job.”

Q. As a fellow hooker, do you see Jamie George playing in the next World Cup? How valuable is he, given your familiarity with him?

“There are some good hookers coming through, but with Jamie, it is not just the benefit he provides on the rugby pitch – his performance is good, and his work ethic is great.

“It is what he provides in terms of emotional intelligence within a squad: bringing a squad together, bringing individuals together.

“It is not an individual sport; it is a team sport. The combination of what you feel for the guy next to you, behind you, and when you stand in a circle… There needs to be true empathy, love, and hardship. Going through difficult times brings you together.

“My experience of Jamie is that he is one of those guys where the squad, in essence, is weaker without him. When you have him there, I know he will bring the group together.”